Circular Podcast with R for Repair - Katie Treggiden Skip to content

Circular Podcast with R for Repair

How can broken items be given new value? Is repair only to be used when an object is spoiled or broken? Can repair be aspirational? On today’s episode, I’m talking to Hans Tan, Tiffany Loy and Hunn Wai from the R for Repair exhibition, which ran from 13 January until 6 February 2021 at the National Design Centre, Singapore. The exhibition, curated by Tan, shone a timely spotlight on global waste by showing how broken or discarded items can be given new value.

Below is a transcript of our conversation. Find the full episode available to listen on Spotify here.

Katie Treggiden 

I’m Katie Treggiden and this is circular, a podcast exploring the intersections of craft, design and sustainability. Join me as I talk to the Thinkers, Doers and makers of the circular economy. These are the people who are challenging the linear take make waste model of production and consumption and working towards something better. In this series, we’re talking about repair.

Hans Tan 

While planning for this exhibition, I think one thing that I reflected on was the fact that in most Asian cultures, mending is seen as something you do only when you can’t afford to replace something that is broken or torn. And, you know, so that’s why buying something new in a festive occasion, like Chinese New Year or something important, and a symbol and a sign of prosperity. So in Asian context, I think mending is also not a profession, that anyone who aspire to be, you know, to do as a professional. And so I think for me, it was really important to reposition, repair, and to perhaps, you know, reposition repair as an explorational activity that you could generate also inspiration or outcome

 

Katie Treggiden 

R is for Repair run from the 13th of January until the 6th of February 2021 at the National Design Centre in Singapore. The exhibition curated by Hans Tan shone a timely spotlight on global waste by showing how broken or discarded items can be given new value. Tan is an educator, designer and curator based in Singapore. Working from the perspective that design helps us not only to do, but also to understand, he explores the boundaries between art, craft and design. He’s an associate professor at the division of Industrial Design National University of Singapore, and a multi award winning designer with work in the permanent collections of museums in Singapore, Hong Kong, New York and the Netherlands. I also spoke to two of  the designers whose work formed part of the eHxhibition, Tiffany Loy and Hunn Wai, one half of Lanzavecchia and Wai . Tiffany Loy is a Singaporean artist trained in industrial design and textile weaving. She graduated from the Royal College of Art in London with an MA in textiles, specialising in woven textiles, and was a recipient of the Design Singapore Scholarship. Lanzavecchia and Wai is an award winning Industrial Design Studio based between Italy and Singapore, founded by Francesca Lanzavecchia and Hunn Wai. Wai from Singapore and was educated as an industrial designer at the National University before meeting Lanzavecchia at the Design Academy Eindhoven in the Netherlands while studying for a Master’s in Design.

Katie Treggiden 

Thank you so much for joining me, firstly, I’d like to start at the beginning and ask each of you a little bit about your childhood and how mending and repair showed up in your early life, if indeed it did, Hans do you want to go first?

Hans Tan 

Sure. I mean, in my case, I don’t remember mending or repairing anything be it a piece of clothing, or a toy that I had when I  was young, so I think that part was never something that was part of my childhood. At the same time, I do remember clearly that when I was a child, right up to my early teens, the only time where I got to buy something new was when it was a good occasion, a festive occasion like in during Chinese New Year or Christmas,  it was the only time in a once a year where for example, I could get a new piece of clothing or a new toy. So so things were quite hard to come by new things. And I know certainly buying something new to replace something old is something that happens in a once or twice a year. So for me, I think that for me formed part of how I got to know the idea or in the preciousness of things that we own.

Katie Treggiden 

Yes, there was a sense that objects were to be cherished and looked after even if you don’t necessarily remember them being mended. That’s interesting. Tiffany, how about you? Do you remember mending or repair showing up at all in your childhood?

Tiffany Loy 

I must admit that like Hans, I didn’t really mend anything, but I must say that I really took really good care of my things. It’s just in my personality to do so. And I remember putting a blanket over all my stuffed toys in bed, just to prevent them from getting dusty. So it’s just I believe that if you take really good care for things, then you don’t have to ever repair them.

Katie Treggiden 

Do you remember your parents or your grandparents mending things?

Tiffany Loy 

Um, no what my grandma did some mending and embroidery. My parents didn’t they tend to just buy new things. I must admit, yeah, I think that’s just part of the lifestyle that we have here.

Katie Treggiden 

Yeah, I think it’s an interesting sort of generational shift that certainly my grandparents definitely mended, my mum did when I was very young, but as I got older, I think that dropped off a little bit. And certainly I didn’t mend during my sort of childhood, it’s only very recently as I’ve become more aware of the environment and sustainability and that sort of thing, but it’s become a big part of my life. Hunn, how about you? How did mending and repair or the care of objects show up in your early life or childhood?

Hunn Wai 

Yeah, I think I do share something with Tiffany, in the sense that I do take care of my things even up till now, but that kind of behaviour has kind of, you know, taken on a different meaning as you as you mature, and you understand, you know, you go to factories, and like, Oh, no, you know, that’s there is so much ridiculousness in the production of things, and the buying of things, and the transportation of things and retail of things. And, you know, it’s as crazy as what you’re exposed to when you’re being a professional designer. But back to being a kid, how do you say, yeah, I think with Hans as well you don’t get anything special until it’s a special occasion like you’ve done well, in school or it’s your birthday. But I do remember  in a way, play not too clunky, or what work like, reprogramming the way of play and also, so like, the Transformers universe always makes it a Legos universe and Legos universe always makes with cardboard boxes, you know. So I think that was kind of expanding the definition of the experience beyond just the individual toy universes, I really, really enjoy, and just not making as well, in my mind  when I was growing up, you know, so, like, cardboard boxes and building things and drawing, a lot of drawing actually, was always quite a big part of, of growing up. Yeah,

Katie Treggiden 

That’s interesting so the idea of kind of hacking toys in order to make them work for you and merging different universes. And I think part of mending is about this idea of sort of personal agency and taking control of our environment. So thanks for raising that, that’s an interesting point.  Hans you curated R is for Repair an exhibition that at the time of recording has just closed at the National Design Centre in Singapore. The exhibition questioned global waste by looking at how broken or discarded items can be given new value. Can you tell us a little bit about the exhibition overall, and then your approach to researching and curating it?

Hans Tan 

Yeah, for this exhibition, I think the main aim is really to question the role of repair, particularly in the contemporary design context. It’s interesting, just now, you know, you talked about what mending or repair was to us, when we were young. So while planning for this exhibition, I think one thing that I reflected on was, you know, the fact that in most Asian cultures, mending is seen as something you do only when you can’t afford to replace something that is broken or torn. And you know, buying something new in a festive occasion, like Chinese New Year or something important, and a symbol, you know, and a sign of prosperity. So in Asian context, I think, mending is also not a profession, that anyone who aspire to be, you know, to do as a professional. And so I think, for me, it was really important to reposition, repair, and to perhaps reposition, prepare as an aspirational activity that you could generate also inspiration of outcome, and what better way to do it than to work with designers in Singapore and of course, we have two very talented ones with of us today, as well.

Katie Treggiden 

Yeah, I think that association between mending and repairing poverty is really important. You know, as the sustainability movement sort of says, Well, we’ve all got to start mending. It’s not appropriate for everybody. It’s not possible for everybody. It brings up a lot of difficult feelings. And so I think exhibitions like this that can help to reposition, mending are really important. You’ve said that sustainability can be “articulated and practised in an attractive, purposeful way”. Would you mind digging into that a little bit more for us?

Hans Tan 

Yes, certainly. So, I mean, commonly we perceive sustainable practices as something that you know, you need to inconvenience yourself with. You need to go beyond what you normally do to be able to know for example, mend en a piece of clothing or to sort out your rubbish. And it comes at a cost. And often is associated with sacrifice as well. . But for me, I mean, as designers we are we are we have a unique position in trying to reposition, in this case repair as something perhaps aspirational meaning you know that maybe the outcome is something really desirable that one would want then to participate in repairing it. Or, and really, the idea is that, you know, we could see repair as something that is not of inconvenience, but something that we will love to do.

Katie Treggiden 

Yeah, certainly, well, we’ll come on to the objects that Tiffany and Hunn created and they’re definitely aspirational, beautiful objects actually elevated the original object, I think. You paired 10 broken objects sent in by members of the public with 10 Singaporean designers, so how did you choose the objects? How did you choose the designers? And how did you how did you pair them up? How did you decide which designer got which object?

Hans Tan 

So this one question that I get really often when people talk about exhibition, you know, how do you kind of gel the objects and the designers together? So the thing is, for the objects, or it was an open call, so anyone in Singapore could send in a broken object, an object in disrepair. And, and we came up with a list of objects, or there was submitted from the public. And for us, the one thing that we also did was for each submission, where the participant had to submit a story behind object, so not just sending in images of the objects and showing us that, you know, is broken and, you know, mending is possible, but at the same time, they had to write a short paragraph of text about the product. So in this case, you know, we could also choose and select objects that can have a interesting story behind it. And almost all the objects that we selected had a very meaningful story behind the object itself, and why the owner kept it after so after so much time, in spite of it being faulty. And at the same time, the idea was really to match each of this object with with a designer. And for me, I think, being being quite familiar with the works of the 10 designers that I was invited for this exhibition, I think it’s about matching at one end, the skill sets of the designers, and in this case, we really wanted to have a diverse interpretation of all the different objects. So we invited designers from different domains. So we had our product designers, furniture designers, you know, fibre artists, like Tiffany, designers like Hunn Wai, who has worked with really big, luxury brands. Now, we also invited interaction designers,  and communication designers, and even a toy designer and advertising agency as well. So we wanted to really create a multifaceted, divergent way of looking at repair and everyone contributed their ideas based on their design ethos.

Katie Treggiden 

Yeah, that’s really important, because I think sometimes you tend to think of mending as being sort of textiles based or kind of repair being around wood. And so I think bringing in this diverse collection of designers, and those objects, as you say, which have such stories, so let’s dig into the, to the story of one of those objects. Tiffany hands gave you a Calvin Klein tote bag, that Arnold Gove bought with his very first pay check. Once his pride and joy it had developed holes and been relegated to a grocery bag. Can you tell us a little bit about how you felt when you first received that object?

Tiffany Loy 

I was very, very extremely careful. Because I was handling someone else’s personal object. I see a bag as a personal thing, because it’s almost like a piece of clothing. And I’m quite possessive of my own belongings so I tend to assume that everyone is like this. So when we first had our telephone conversation, I was trying to assess how precious this thing is to him and how open he was to potential changes. And in the end, I decided that just to play safe, I will make only reversible changes so that if you really wanted to, he could reverse the repair, ironically, but at least he won’t be heartbroken and he won’t regret his decision of trusting this designer.

Katie Treggiden 

Yeah, that’s quite interesting and I think that’s something that museums do in conservation now because obviously, types of repair change and evolve over time. So the idea that you could reverse the repair and update it with a with a more interesting or a more up to date one I should say. So you flicked the bag inside out and added a cord mesh which was both to strengthen it and also to form an external pocket. Can you talk to us little bit about how you came up with that solution, I think flipping the bag inside out is a stroke of genius.

Tiffany Loy 

Thank you. Well, I think flipping something inside out just to continue using it seems very much aligned to our north attitude. Like, you just want to keep using it until it’s not possible to use it anymore. So when I first received it, I had a good thorough look at the bag just to get to know it and to highlight all the areas that are fragile areas that I need to take care of. I did iron on some tape, just to patch up the hole just so it doesn’t get bigger, but then when I saw how well maintained the inside was, surprisingly, I decided that, you know, we should just show that instead. But then, of course, I couldn’t just end there, I think Hans might be disappointed if I just stopped there so because the inner lining was quite delicate. So I definitely had to add additional material. Again, I could have just stitched on a piece of fabric all over it, but I thought that might be a bit boring and I wanted to do something a bit more fancy and be a bit more indulgent. So I decided to make the cord mesh, which, incidentally, was quite suitable since he had been using it as a grocery bag. So I thought, okay, this was the most aesthetically and practically appropriate solution.

Katie Treggiden 

Yeah, really nice and it gives it a bit of extra functionality as well, doesn’t it? Because so you can tuck things just into that cord mesh. And how did Arnold feel about his bag when when he saw it? Was he pleased with what you’ve done?

Tiffany Loy 

He said he was. So I would like to believe that.I met both he and his wife at the exhibition and they were telling me that they were happy with the fact that there was increased capacity. And they do grocery shopping together so that means both of them will be using the bag, which I thought was really sweet because what was once a personal object is now a family object. And I hope they continue to use it like this. I don’t know how long they’ll continue to use it, but I think I might check in maybe a year from now just to see if they’re still using it.

Katie Treggiden 

Yeah, and I think that you know, the second tenet of the circular economy is keeping materials and objects in use and so I think that’s the most important thing, isn’t it? You’ve been able to extend its its useful life for them. What do you think we can learn from a sustainability point of view from the transformation of that bag?

Tiffany Loy 

Joy  really like the joy of transforming something.  I think it’s something that you cannot convince someone with words you kind of have to just let them try it themselves and be convinced, I guess. When you mend or repair an object, you are essentially personalising it and every iteration of mending makes the object more precious and more reflective of your own personality. So if you put a bit of pride into it, it becomes a lot more enjoyable.

Katie Treggiden 

Yeah, that’s a lovely way to look at it, not that it’s a damaged object and the repair is evidence of the damage but actually that you cared about it enough to mend it, and therefore the repair makes it even more special. Brilliant. Thank you.

Katie Treggiden 

I’m trying a few different ways of supporting the podcast this time around. So we’ll be back after a short break and thank you so much to everybody who helped to make this season happen.

Katie Treggiden 

If you used to feel proud and excited about being a designer maker, about making with your hands, but have started to feel a creeping sense of guilt, about putting yet more stuff out into the world you might want to check out my new masterclass. If the idea of sustainability has started to feel heavy and full of duty, and you wish you could engage with it in a way that feels more light, playful and creative. You might want to check out my new master class. If you’ve ever wondered about the potential of waste as a raw material. You definitely want to check out my new master class. Find out more at Katietreggiden.com/masterclass. And if the spelling of my surname has already got your head in a spin, don’t worry. There’s a link in the show notes.

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Katie Treggiden 

Hunn, Hans gave you and your creative partner a $15 watch which had originally been bought in Chinatown that Nicole had had since school. It had a broken strap and had been  replaced with a like for like replacement. So she already had a new watch, right? But this watch still held sentimental value for her despite the fact that it’s kind of this cheap mass produced object. What did you feel the first time you saw it? What was your initial reaction to this brief from Hans?

Hunn Wai 

I was glad that we got a watch, I was really happy to get a watch, because it’s really quite powerful object, you know, it’s got a lot of narratives, floating around an object and heirloom something that unwittingly becomes part of your identity over a period of time, you know, you interact with it almost every 30 seconds. And just by doing this, so there’s a lot of powerful narratives that our studio could play with, you know, and that was something that as a kind of a potential meter it scored quite high. The sentiment, there’s a sort of, obviously, it’s not just a watch, it’s a broken watch, and it came with a lot of sentimental value. And I think we’re both quite romantic designers,  in the sense that we seek to re-humanize situations through objects and new behaviours. So like, to receive something like this was quite an honour, actually, that she decided to put trust in us to not, you know, screw up a very important thing. And also that’s how we kind of build the criteria around our design was not to, you know, like, hey, let’s turn into dust and without, like, casting in acrylic, I think that is such a vulgar So we obviously didn’t go that route and like I said before, we felt really happy to receive a timekeeping, time instrument, you know, regardless, it was $15. And there is beauty and $15 objects that you use for 10 years, 15 years and I mean, they are well built and well engineered. So that’s why of course they are cheap so  yeah, we felt really optimistic when we first got it.

Katie Treggiden 

I think the the respect of that both of you have for what those objects meant to their owners is a really beautiful thing. And it’s a it’s a really lovely starting point, although one that comes with a great deal of responsibility. So you enclosed this mass produced timepiece in a bespoke walnut case with brass fixings, turning it into a clock. How did you come up with that idea and what does the contrast between those material values mean?

Hunn Wai 

So with the strap broken that effectively renders the watch non wearable. So then decided to kind of map out like, it is non wearable, then what is this new identity? And, obviously, we all have broken strapped watches around the house, right? And we leave it in the bathroom on the counter oh it’s a clock, right? So in a way it easily slips into this new identity with or without design intervention. So a clock it is right, but how do you formalise a clock? How do you formalise the idea? How do you communicate the respect for it, you know, so we were inspired by the vitrines of museums, you know, like like how, in a way the vitrines of museums should not interfere with the reading of the object you know, it should protect it obviously from fingers and atmosphereal  elements and so and so forth, you know, from degradation, right. So, how do we freeze that moment? And in what format? So that’s why we chose this normal cuboid shape right? And you know, this whole idea of  having phones in cases so now, of course, it should the thinking behind the solution should be a case for it, but what kind of case right so you will think about, like watch cases of your clock, you know, clock cases of  your own made of beautiful wood. Right? So how do we have this super normal thing and at the same time, it’s rather just a container for it but the same time it formalises its new identity. So, looking at super normal clocks in and looking at the ones from from Mooji, looking at the ones from you know, because I just understand  from the one by Dieter Rams from Brown, you know, they had this certain dimensions, a certain proportion. So, we were also quite sensitive to how big the circumference, I mean the face of the watch was and how that would kind of be in dialogue with the dimensions of the super cuboid.  Yeah, and the brass, brass fittings actually came as a way like, okay, we have a case, but how do we secure the front plate in a most non fussy way possible? So originally, I think that the first iteration was that things wouldn’t be seen. Right. And  we just found out that, hey, you know, like, if you’re going to use pins anyway, why not make them brass and why not show them as our markers for 369 and 12th right. So then again, so we try to extract as much value as possible from each component involved as well, you know, so that the brass core thing wouldn’t be hidden, but at least has one face exposed, and has this extra essential function?

Katie Treggiden 

Yeah, that’s fantastic. How did Nicole feel? Was she was she surprised with what you’ve done? What did you think when she got the piece back?

Hunn Wai 

Yeah,  she was very thankful about it, because, obviously, that the piece meant a lot to her. I mean, it came from her parents, you know, and it was a piece that there was a piece that kind of marked a period of teenage to young adulthood. So through that it could be renewed, you know, that  could be used for the future seasons of our life. And that, you know it’s not just in a drawer anymore, but rather, it’s been elevated to a place of pride  and the more you put it there, the more you will use it, and the more you use it, the more you talk about it, and it kind of becomes a beacon of what we’re doing right.

Katie Treggiden 

And what what do you think we can learn from that transformation from a sustainability point of view, and that idea of taking something broken and turning it into something that’s a source of pride again.

Hunn Wai 

I think it gives a lot of ownership and autonomy to the user.  So you’re not at the whims and wiles of, you know, whatever, insert in a blank you know, of planned obsolescence and things that, you know, it kind of gives you like, Oh, I didn’t know you could do it that way and then I’m not beholden to chucking it out and buying new. So I think that there’s quite a nice sense of renewed ownership and also confidence in your own abilities. You know, I think repairing also helps you to appreciate the amount of work and engineering and ingenuity that has gone into that object right? If you’ve never opened up your your iPhone, or if you never opened up your old iron that’s not functioning you never knew you could run the wires this way, or the PCB board is like such a beautiful object, that’s always inside this plastic casing. So I think what brings us sustainability, also I think, one part of the equation for sustainability is the appreciation of how things are put together and how things are made.  I think a huge part of why the world’s not sustainable is because we become so numb to these things, you know, we don’t appreciate it. If we don’t  appreciate them with this consumer image, I mean, this consumer image and the images, the bubble and Chocobo. And, you know, I go to $1 shop and satisfy my short term gratifications right? I’ll go to whichever e-comm website to satisfy your gratifications. So pat that link on the IG post, like by now and tomorrow receive so that I can repost it and show that now and it’s funny, it’s quite a method close to heart because I do feel it’s quite published in the way that we consume.

Katie Treggiden 

Yeah, I think one of the things I talked about is the shift from being a consumer to being a citizen. And I think both of the points you’ve made there play into that idea. Firstly, the idea that we have got power, you know, we’re not just beholden to these big companies that plan obsolescence or make things unrepairable. And secondly, the idea that we can make more conscious choices and have more respect for the making process. And I think mending and making sort of really closely related art and understanding and skill in one gives an insight into the other so brilliant, thank you. Hans, you set out to curate this exhibition without knowing what the final pieces would be, which strikes me as a bold move. How did you feel about the work, or firstly, how did you feel kind of going into that process with that sense of uncertainty? And then secondly, how did you feel about the work that came back particularly these two pieces?

Hans Tan 

Yeah, I mean, Katie, you’re perfectly right. I mean, going through this exhibition, putting it together. I think it was done in faith and was facing the designers and believing that they will make really interesting and good interpretations. So in fact, the brief was very, very straightforward to all the designers and the brief was the same, although the objects are different. And, in fact, the brief allowed them a full creative freedom to interpret the broken objects that they will paired with, but for me, the surprising thing was, each of them took great pains in incorporating that personal story from the owner, and weaving it into the repair and making intent and the transformation process for each of this objects that I was really, really surprised in at the end, almost every single designer did that. And I thought there was something very difficult to do. But at the same time, it was very rewarding. In all these stories coming together, it was almost as if the personal stories of each of the owners was being repaired to some extent, and coming together to form a very interesting narrative exhibition.

Katie Treggiden 

And I think one of the things that is so important in mending and repair is those personal stories, you know, you can either look at the idea that an object is perfect when it’s new, and then gradually degrades. And so we throw it away. Or you can imagine that an object is a blank canvas when we buy it. And it’s only we know when it gets bumps and scraped, that it starts collecting stories and that it grows in value. And I think this exhibition really kind of beautifully demonstrates that idea that these stories are kind of so important to the value of an older object. So yeah, I think that’s a really lovely point. How do you feel that opinions towards mending and repair are changing? You mentioned that in Asian culture, you know, this is often something that’s associated with poverty, and that one of the things you hope to do with this exhibition was change those perceptions, can you see that change starting to happen?

Hans Tan 

I mean, that precisely is the aim of the exhibition. And I think it’s very difficult to get people to repair things that are broken, I think it’s really more important to begin to change the mindset that people have with regards to things that are broken, and we’ve got to the notion of repair. And really to see, you know, brokenness is not end point in failure, where the product fails to perform, right, but to see, you know, brokenness as an opportunity for innovation, of doing something new. And I think the idea of hacking is really important here as well to know to take something existing, although it has broken down, and to be able to reconstitute it in a different way. And I think, you know, in the exhibition, I mean, Tiffany and Hunn, in this case, you know, they pains to restore the utility of the object. But I think, you know, there were also some other designers who chose not to restore the utility of the object, but to recast, you know, the original object in a, in a totally different light. And that is also another creative way of seeing repair, which is really important, you know, as a lens to see, you know, how we can see all things and broken things.

Katie Treggiden 

Yes, I think that idea that a repair is not necessarily putting something back as it was, but it might be reinventing it. And even these two projects that Tiffany and Hunn did,  do that, to a certain extent, don’t they, they sort of recast a watch as a clock or a sort of designer bag as a  more functional grocery bag. And I think that’s an interesting point. And, you know, one of the kind of criticisms of a lot of the work that’s happening in sustainability at the moment is when you recycle something, its value tends to go down slightly every time you recycle it. So all you’re doing is sort of delaying the inevitable destination in landfill. Whereas I think what these projects show is actually the value of an object can go up when it’s repaired, which is really important.

Hans Tan 

Exactly, yeah. Typically when you repair something, you assume that the repair will feel in comparison with the original state of the object. But in this project, we really wanted to position repair as activity where you know, the object that you repair becomes better off than what originally it was. And there can be different ways to define better off, it can be better off in terms of utility, it can be better off in terms of really looking at objects in a different light. And so I think, you know, it was really about having these types of different values being showcased in such an exhibition.

Katie Treggiden 

What do you think the future holds for mending and repair?

Hans Tan 

You know, as a designer, and I’m not sure if Hunn and Tiffany will agree with me. We often design new things. And, you know,  what’s the next new chair or the next new bag? What’s the next new coffee machine and for me, I think it’s so interesting for designers like myself to think about, you know, redesigning all things. And for the longest time design has been positioned to generate new things. But I think design can be also very well positioned to relook at old things as well, especially things that are, you know, maybe broken needs repair, or, you know, it’s not inVogue anymore. And, you know, we can really give a new light to these things that you know, are not, not necessary are not looked on as you know, something important anymore. And perhaps, in the future, you know, there can be a professional, a new profession where a designer solely focuses on, you know, repairing things, maybe a bespoke repair designer, like how cobblers used to repair shoes on the roadside, and maybe we can do in a totally different way and generate new businesses and new, repair models, business models, where we can see a sustainable option as a profession as well.

Katie Treggiden 

Yes absolutely and that’s a wonderfully optimistic note to end on. So thank you so much for your insights. It’s been really, really interesting talking to you. Thank you.

Katie Treggiden 

If you enjoyed this episode, can I ask you to leave a review, and perhaps even hit subscribe? I’ll be honest, I don’t really understand how the algorithm works. But I’m told those two actions really help other people to find the podcast. So that would be amazing. Thank you. You can find me on Instagram at @katietreggiden.1, you can subscribe to my email newsletter via a link in the show notes. And if you’re a designer,  maker, you should really join my free Facebook group Making Design Circular. See you there.  Part of my commitment to 1% of the planet. I’ve donated the ad spot in this episode to Surfers Against Sewage an organisation I’m really proud to support.  The episode was produced by Sasha Huff so thank you to Sasha and to October Communications for marketing and moral support. And to you for joining me, you’ve been listening to circular with Katie Treggiden.