Is greenhushing more dangerous than greenwashing?
This is an auto-generated transcript has not been edited or proofread and therefore may contain errors.
Malin Cunningham
Welcome to Spill the Green Tea, the podcast where we dive into perhaps the most controversial part of sustainability, how to talk about it.
Katie Treggiden
That's right, we're exploring how to talk about your eco-efforts without getting called out. Join us for straight-talking, behind-the-scenes insights and practical takeaways that will help you gather the courage to shine your light in these volatile, uncertain, complex and ambiguous times.
Malin Cunningham
It's a serious topic and we don't shy away from that, but we will bring you uplifting, positive and pragmatic conversations with brilliant guests and in-depth discussions between the two of us, all to give you the confidence to talk about your imperfect efforts towards genuine sustainability.
Katie Treggiden
Because it's not just showing off, sharing your progress helps you connect with clients and customers and inspire others to be more open about where they are on their journey. We need your stories now more than ever. Welcome to the very first episode of Spill the Green Tea, how to talk about sustainability without getting called out.
But before we dive into how to talk about sustainability, we thought we'd start by talking about why to talk about sustainability, because there is something of a green hush going on at the moment. Lots of people have stopped talking, even people who are making genuinely good progress. So we wanted to dig into that a little bit and Malin and I, in this episode, cover the definitions of greenwashing versus green hushing, some of the reasons for the green hush that's happening at the moment.
I even do a cheeky little pestle analysis, so that's fun. We talk about why green hushing is a problem, and fundamentally, why you should be talking about sustainability with confidence, which is what the rest of the podcast is going to help you do. So it's a brilliant sort of introduction to some of the stuff we're going to be talking about.
We've got some brilliant interview episodes coming up, and there'll be more of these episodes where it's just Malin and I going deep on a particular topic. So I'll stop talking so that you can listen to us talking. I hope you enjoy this episode, and I will see you on the other side.
Malin Cunningham
A really useful way to talk about greenwashing and green hushing is to use the Planet Tracker's very clever Greenwashing Hydra, which is just a way of sort of summarising all the different ways in which greenwashing shows up. And they have called out six different ways. Obviously, today we're focussing on the green hushing, but I'm sure all these things will come up as we work through the various episodes of this podcast.
We've got green crowding. I'll just do a very brief explanation of each of them. So green crowding is where you're hiding behind an organisation or a group of people to make out that you're greener than perhaps you are.
So you're thinking that the standards that that group is associated with applies to you, but it may or may not. Greenlighting is when you are focussing on one specific thing that you're maybe famous for, so like one particular product or a service, etc, and you're sort of ignoring the rest. Then we've got green shifting, and this is about finger pointing.
So it means, you know, rather than talking about what you're doing or focussing on the things that you need to address, you're trying to put the blame or shift the focus onto somebody else. Actually, one of the best ones is the carbon calculator, carbon footprint calculator. So if you don't know who invented that, it was one of the big fossil fuel companies who want us to think about our own carbon footprint.
Then we have green labelling. So that's very obvious, I guess. So things like eco, sustainability, having lots of green pretty colours on things, making it look green while it might not be.
And green rinsing is when you're tracking, you know, some data and some progress, and then you get a bit closer to the time where you have to report on it. And you're basically changing your parameters so that people can't see over time where you're at. So I just think it's a really useful framework for understanding what green washing is.
And the final one, of course, is green washing.
Katie Treggiden
Yeah, it's so interesting, because I haven't heard of half of those terms. But we're definitely going to have to dive into some of those in more depth in future episodes. Because I think, yeah, it's some really sneaky ways that people are green washing.
But today, we're here to talk about green hushing, and why green hushing might actually be more dangerous than green washing. So should we start with some definitions, Malin?
Malin Cunningham
Yeah, that sounds good. What is green washing? So generally speaking, it's exaggerating or misrepresenting what you're doing, basically making out that you are greener than you actually are.
Katie Treggiden
Yeah. And fascinatingly, it's not actually defined in law. So there is no legal definition of green washing.
But I asked Anna Dewitt, who is a lawyer for the Competitions and Markets Authority, so that's the government body behind the Green Claims Code, to give us a definition. So this is not the legal definition, this is Anna's interpretation of the law. And she said, it's giving the overall impression that a product, service, process or organisation is better for the environment than it actually is through what is said, what is implied, or what is omitted.
And I think that's a really important distinction. It's not just about what you say. And to some of those Green Hydra examples you gave us, it might be green lighting one particular part of your business and not really mentioning the rest, kind of omitting some of that information.
So if that's green washing, kind of people claiming they're more sustainable than they are, what's green hushing?
Malin Cunningham
Well, as the word suggests, so the word hush, basically means that you're withholding or underreporting what you're doing. And, you know, there are lots of different reasons for that, you know, we'll dive into that shortly. But in short, it's about either avoiding scrutiny, so people can't sort of interrogate what you're doing, because you're not saying anything.
Or maybe, you know, it's the fact that you're worried about being called out for green washing, ironically. So instead of saying something that might trip you up, you don't say anything at all.
Katie Treggiden
Yeah, and I think in, I remember going to Clockwell Design Week a few years ago, and I forget exactly which year it was, but all of a sudden, green was everywhere. Everybody was talking about sustainability, every window display had something about environmentalism in it. And on the one hand, I found that quite exciting, because it meant that people clearly thought it mattered.
On the other hand, there was an awful lot of people jumping on the bandwagon, an awful lot of green washing, people kind of making big claims they couldn't really substantiate, or making vague claims, which is another form of green washing. And it's right and proper that some of those people have been called out, and those practises have been curtailed. But I think we've now got this kind of over-correction of that, where people who are doing genuinely brilliant work are frightened to talk about it.
So where is that fear coming from? Why have we got this, what I like to call the great green hush that I think is now happening in sustainability, where I can go to a design show and not see a single product that's claiming to be sustainable, or talking about the environment?
Malin Cunningham
Yes, I think there's lots of different reasons for it. I think one of the key ones is that people feel a bit confused about the regulations, you know, they're not quite sure what they are meant to be doing, and meant to be saying, and they feel like they can't quite interpret that. And, you know, and it is, even if you understand them, you know, when you read them, because they're not, it's not complicated, actually, when you dive into it, and you think about it, and apply it to yourself, it is definitely trickier.
And I also think that there is a lack of confidence, maybe, in the data that you have. So, you know, we're, you know, businesses are recognising that they have, they have to have access to all this information, and understand how that's changed over time. And it's quite a technical job, isn't it?
And actually, you know, you have to then be confident that everything that you have is correct, and it's not going to trip you up. I think a really big one, though, and I'm definitely seeing this a lot with businesses that we talk to, is this element of sort of readjustment. So I think particularly around COP, there was this like, so I mean, talking about COP 20, was it the 26th, the Glasgow one, and you know, that there was everybody was rallying around, they were like making all of these huge claims, and huge commitments in terms of we're going to get to net zero by, you know, insert very ambitious date, and so on and so forth.
And then all of a sudden, now, you know, made huge progress on certain aspects. And then I realised that actually, this is really hard, and we're not quite sure, you know, how are we going to meet all these targets that we've set? And because of that, they're just taking stock, they're just holding back a little bit and trying to work out what's next.
Katie Treggiden
Yeah. And I think a lot of those targets were 2030, right, which felt a really long time away when those targets were set. But we're now in 2026.
2030, depending on when in 2030, you're counting is less than four years away. And yeah, I think you're right. I think a lot of people are having a genuine and well-intentioned reset of actually, what can we achieve by then?
What should we be communicating? And what do we perhaps need to, you know, be quiet about until we've got some more answers? But do you think there's also kind of people who are making good progress towards their targets and are doing everything right?
Perhaps just, do you think there's a bit of perfectionism creeping in?
Malin Cunningham
Oh, definitely. Absolutely. And I think that's probably actually, certainly with the organisations and the people we speak to, I think that's the thing that comes out the most.
They just feel like, because the bar has been so high, and I think a load of people have made the claims you just said, you know, they've gone out big, then you feel like either you're maybe somehow left behind, and you are not as far ahead as they are. Or you think, oh, gosh, you know, this is massive. And we're only starting to make some progress over here.
Can't possibly talk about that. I need to have all of this stuff worked out first. But in reality, you know, that isn't the case at all.
And we talk about that a lot, don't we? You know, so I always talk about, you know, progress, not perfection. Talk about where you are on your journey, be clear about that.
And then, you know, talk about the journey as you move through it. Because that's how you, you know, both inspire the people, your customers or your clients, but also other companies.
Katie Treggiden
Yeah. And I think that's a really important point. There's this idea, isn't there, that until I've done everything perfectly, I shouldn't say anything.
But I think what people miss is nobody's done everything perfectly. Those companies don't exist. I created something called the five stage path to sustainability a little while ago, which went from acorns, seedling, sapling, tree and forest.
So it was a sort of journey from we've done nothing to we've done everything. And I couldn't find a single forest organisation. So it just shows that nobody is perfect.
I've done a cheeky little pestle analysis to answer this question because I'm a nerd. So for anyone who's not familiar with a pestle analysis, it looks at political, economic, social, technological, legal and environmental factors to just kind of give a bit of a macro picture on what's going on. So political, obviously, we've got the rise of a right wing that is not only rejecting climate change as a thing, but also positioning ESG, so environmental social governance, as quote unquote woke.
So I think there's this sense that perhaps the people who are doing this stuff because they felt they should but weren't really on board have been given permission not to because there's now this whole group of people saying they don't have to. And I think there are also some real fears. So in 2021, Texas banned local state government entities from doing business with firms that boycotting fossil fuels.
So there's also kind of real political blowback from this kind of rejection of climate change. And I know a lot of funding has been pulled in the states as well. A lot of jobs have just disappeared, you know, kind of environmental jobs.
So there's a very real political kind of blowback in terms of economic issues. We've got cost of living crisis. So I think a lot of consumers are much more focused on making ends meet than making sustainable buying choices.
And obviously, that's affecting the companies then that they're buying for. And at a corporate level, I mean, this isn't new, but there's a real focus on quarterly earnings. On the social front, there's some really interesting research, which we'll link to in the show notes that says that 69% of people would donate 1% of their income to tackle the climate crisis.
But those people make the assumption that only 43% of other people would. So I think there's this real sense that I care about this, but I don't think anyone else does. And as humans, we are a collective species, we need to know that people are with us in order to act.
And I also think there's increasing scepticism, like we have become very cynical. And so I think companies making claims are doing so into a sceptical audience. So they really need to kind of feel confident.
Technological, you've already touched on, Malin, this idea of the data and how complex it can be. So there's a phrase which is paralysis by analysis. And I think, you know, tracking this stuff is hard.
Finding meaningful like for like comparisons is hard. And I think that has kind of put people off a little bit. It's that sense that if we can't measure it properly, then why bother doing it?
Now, the legal one, I think, is really interesting, because A, the Green Claims Code came in in 2021. So that's five years ago now. And B, it wasn't new law, it just clarified existing law.
And there was a lot of fuss at the time. Oh, God, this new thing, the Green Claims Code, all of that law already existed. All the CMA did was clarified it for sustainability claims.
But it certainly created a fear of kind of fines, litigation, all that sort of thing. And then in terms of the environmental factors, I think we've hit a point where keeping global temperatures within 1.5 degrees above industrial levels, which is what we agreed to do at the Paris Climate Change Agreement, is looking far less possible than it did. Some would say it's now not possible.
And I think A, that's making people lose hope. It's making people think, well, what's the point? Little side note, every single tiny fraction of a degree matters, particularly for people living on the front line of this stuff.
And I also think, and we'll definitely have more conversations about this, Malin, in future episodes, the language is shifting from sustainability, from regenerative, circular, quote-unquote, saving the planet, and moving towards future-proofing resilience. Kind of how do we survive through this climate crisis rather than how do we stop this climate crisis? And I think that shift in language is a form of greenhushing in itself.
It's a slightly different conversation. So if those are all the reasons that this is happening, why does it matter? As long as people are doing it, do we need to show off about it?
Malin Cunningham
Of course we do. Because, you know, like I said before, I think when you're talking about it, you can inspire other people. And I think that's one of the key things.
But just to give it a little bit more structure, we'll do some things in order. So the difference, if we think about greenwashing and greenhushing, so greenwashing is obviously very visible, and therefore you can challenge it. You know, you can push back against it and say, you know, that isn't true, or, you know, you're exaggerating, and so on and so forth.
You basically can hold people to account. Whereas greenhushing is the opposite of that, obviously, because you're not sharing anything. There's nothing to look at.
There's nothing for people to critique. And it just makes it harder for everybody to, you know, compare them to, you know, previous years or, you know, to what everybody else is doing in the same sector, whatever it might be. So basically, it makes it harder to regulate than, you know, something that's just wrong.
Katie Treggiden
Consumers and clients to make decisions as well. That's so interesting. I hadn't thought of that perspective that it's just kind of, it's closing down that debate, isn't it?
And those debates are important for the people having them, but also for everybody else who's watching, right? We're learning from these conversations that are happening in the public domain.
Malin Cunningham
Yeah, it creates that kind of vacuum, doesn't it? And then I think there's another key point here, which sort of touches upon what you said before. So it slows down this collective progress.
In other words, you know, if we don't think that other people, because we're social animals, you know, if we don't think that other people care, or the people who are like us that we associate with, they don't care about these things, then we don't, we care less as well. Or it might even be, you know, you were talking before about in your little pestle analysis there, you know, you're talking about the political thing. I just, I think that's really interesting.
Just the fact that it is become political, you know, it shouldn't be a left or a right or anything. It's just, you know, it's just the world, isn't it? It's our planet.
And therefore our lives, you know, we're part of that.
Katie Treggiden
Yeah, and it just seems crazy.
Malin Cunningham
Yeah, it is crazy that that has become something that you can be for and against.
Katie Treggiden
Yeah, I had an ad, I was experimenting with Instagram ads and Facebook ads, and I'd created an ad for a resource and I'd created an ad for a resource I had created to help businesses become more sustainable, and Instagram wouldn't approve it because it was deemed political. And I was just like, how is this political? I'm trying to help people save the world that we live in, like we've only got one planet, this is where we live, and I'm trying to help people make sure it stays habitable, and yet somehow, as you say, this has become a political issue, which is, yeah, wild, frightening, and I think also just shows how far people are willing to go to protect vested interests, right?
There's a lot of money behind these political parties, all of them. So yeah, it slows collective progress, we're not learning from each other, we're not having those conversations out loud. I think it also slows organisational process, so there's this idea that if we can't talk about it, why would we bother doing it?
And I think we're starting to see marketing budgets moving away from sustainability, that's been happening over the last few years, and now innovation budgets are starting to follow. So there's starting to be, you know, for a little while everybody was still doing it, but just doing it quietly, and now there's starting to be rumours of, or not rumours, there are starting to be whispers of, if we can't talk about this stuff, why bother doing it? So there's an argument to say that if we stop talking about it, we stop doing it, and that's really frightening, given the urgency of the climate crisis.
I've just joined the sustainability panel of the Royal Society of Authors, and the chairman said something really interesting in an email this morning, was I know people don't care about this as much as they used to, but the climate crisis doesn't care, it's happening anyway! Which I just thought was such an important point to remember, right? Regardless of how much our audiences care about this stuff, and I think they still do, it's important that we still make action.
Malin Cunningham
Yeah, definitely, and I think when you then add all that together, so that, you know, you shared some stats early on about the fact that 67% of people, or something like that, that genuinely, that would be willing to give up 1% of their salary, you know, to support climate action, basically, or, you know, and if you think about that from a marketing perspective, not leaning into that is kind of crazy, isn't it? That's not a niche, that's the vast majority of people, and you know, we have this conversation all the time, you know, it's actually for brave brands, this is a really big opportunity to lean into this stuff, and you know, tell your story as well, because if you do, you know, you're telling them in a transparent way, you are, you know, sharing your journey, bringing people with you, wow, I mean, that's gold dust, isn't it? Yeah, if you're a comms professional or a marketing professional.
Katie Treggiden
I love that term brave brands, I've written that down, and I think you're right, because the opposite is, and I'm using your words here, Malin, but fear-based governance, right? If we have businesses that are run based on a fear of litigation, you know, uncertainty around regulation, fear of backlash, they're just going to avoid doing anything ambitious, anything interesting, you know, because if you don't stick your head above the parapet, and I just think there's a real fear that we end up just with low ambition behaviour across sectors, and I mean, that's just not fun or interesting for anybody, let alone the impact that's going to have on all manner of things, including the environment.
Malin Cunningham
Well, as I said, I mean, you know, everybody talks about the attention economy, don't they? And the fact that we are so distracted, and there are, you know, million things, well, you know, this could be one of the ways you really stand out, isn't it? You know, if you're doing something different, and you're prepared to do, yeah, again, brave things, you will really stand out and connect with people, and that's, you know, the other important part, isn't it?
You know, talking with people in a way that they understand it, and that you bring them with you, rather than the opposite.
Katie Treggiden
And we know this stuff is important, like, we know that people still care about, people are still doing it, the Design Council has launched a Skills for Planet initiative, which aims to arm a million designers with the skills they need for a regenerative economy, it's already trained almost 41,000. And the skills they're looking at are regenerating nature, embedding circularity, eliminating emissions, empowering green communities, influencing green behaviours, and evaluating green impact. So, you know, that is the industry body for my industry, putting all their effort behind skilling people for this new economy that they believe is coming.
And I know you've seen similar, kind of a similar thing happening on LinkedIn.
Malin Cunningham
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, so LinkedIn, they produce an annual, what they call green skills report. And I just think it's fascinating.
So this year's report, that was, I should say, last year, it came out at the end of November 25. So not that long ago. And that report showed that green skills, in short, are no longer sort of niche, they're business critical.
And how did they know that? Well, lots of different ways. And we'll share, again, we'll share a report in the notes, because there's some really great insights in there.
But one of the things they're saying is that if you have a green talent, the hiring rate for somebody with those skills is 47% higher than the overall.
Katie Treggiden
And that's incredible.
Malin Cunningham
That's not in sustainability jobs. No, no, this is any job. Exactly.
This is LinkedIn. So it's obviously really, really broad. And I thought this was really interesting, considering the sector we're in.
So the sectors with the highest growth rate in these sort of green hires, as I'm naming them, between 2021 and 2025, is tech, information and media. So it's like smack bang, you know, in what we're doing in terms of comms. And I read something else this week, from some internal communications publication called Incomms.
And they were talking about the fact that they're seeing an increase in people with a comms title that are also responsible for sustainability. And there was an interesting discussion in there about, you know, does that sound like greenwashing? Actually, the way that they were talking about is more the fact that as communicators, you know, we can connect with people, we understand our stakeholders, we understand, you know, the different ways in which we need to communicate to for things to land in short, you know, what language to use, etc.
So I just thought, there's just so many indicators there that this is just so important still.
Katie Treggiden
Yeah, and Malin sent me that article. Malin and I send each other a lot of articles that just sort of say interesting dot dot dot. And Malin sent me that one.
And I think one of my takeouts from that was if you're working in comms, you better know your sustainability onions. You know, I think it's so important. It's such an important part of communications now.
And, you know, I've been rewatching the project drawdown videos, which are just such a brilliant resource for understanding how we can crack this. And they have identified 80 technologies, which if implemented aggressively, mean that we can solve the climate crisis. So the tech is there.
The science is there. The tech is there. What's missing is the will.
And I think storytelling is such an important skill for building motivation, for building will. So I think comms people have such a huge role to play now, almost the role to play now, I think, in tackling what's become a very difficult problem. So all of that said, and we've touched on some of this stuff already.
Obviously, this podcast, this is the first episode of a new podcast called Spill the Green Tea. And it's all about how to talk about sustainability without getting called out. So we thought this was an important first episode.
And I'd love to close with, why talk about sustainability without getting called out? Before we get into the how, why bother? Like we've highlighted some of the risks and some of the fears around it, but why is it so important that people keep talking about this stuff?
Malin Cunningham
Well, it's, you know, as we touched on a couple of times already, you know, making sure that you're connecting with the right clients and customers, you know, you're making sure that they have the right values or you have aligned values rather, and sort of moving away from some of the other factors that might play in, i.e., you know, price or whatever else it might be, and create those really loyal connections, I guess, with your audience, basically.
Katie Treggiden
Yeah, and I think that's something you and I have both seen sort of personally with the clients we work with, is some of the clients who were, you know, didn't have those real aligned values have fallen away a little bit. But actually, I think we've both agreed that we want to work with the clients and customers who do have the same values as us and actually care about this stuff, because those tend to be the clients who are going to be more loyal, you know, who are in it for the right reasons. So talking about the fact that you are a sustainable brand, you are a sustainable business is going to mean you find those right customers who stick around.
And, you know, that applies in a B2B setting as well. So I think strengthening partnerships with bigger organisations who are now demanding green supply chains. A lot of the clients I work with are in that position of being in a supply chain, and they absolutely know their stuff.
You know, you can hold up any one of their thousands of products, and they can tell you exactly what the carbon footprint is, because their clients and customers demand that. So this is very real in kind of B2B settings. What else, Malin, why else should people talk about it?
Malin Cunningham
Yeah, so, you know, another really key point for depending on what kind of business you are, of course, is investors. So, you know, for investors, this is quite often, you know, a really key point, you know, having your journey mapped out and knowing your stuff in terms of sustainability, but also delivering on that. In fact, a lot of people, they're both, you know, both to our courses, but also come to us, that they have actually been sent to us by, you know, either, you know, shareholders or investors to say, you need, this is the kind of stuff you really need to sort out, and you need to sort out how you're talking about it as well.
So, you know, it might sound counterintuitive, you know, because of the background noise we're hearing, but that is the reality. And part of that is, it is sort of just what you were saying there in terms of supply chains, because it is so critical to supply chains, you know, big companies in particular, you know, they've had to abide to this really strict regulation for quite a while, and they're not pushing that down, because they need a supply chain to deliver.
Katie Treggiden
Yeah, and I think it's so interesting. So, my husband and I are both lucky enough to have pensions, and mine is invested in an ethical portfolio, and his until recently, or until relatively recently wasn't, and we're quite competitive. So, we are in the very privileged position that we get to have a meeting every six months with our IFA, and he talks us through kind of what's been happening with our, kind of the portfolio that our pensions are invested into.
And he laughs that we're the most competitive couple that he deals with, because I always love it when my ethical portfolio outperforms my husband's non-ethical portfolio. But interestingly, it has outperformed it quarter after quarter, to the extent that my husband has now switched to an ethical portfolio, not because he's particularly into this stuff, but because he wants a good return on his investment. And I think you're seeing the same with investors, that they are aware that this stuff is coming, despite the noise.
The reality is that the sort of linear take-make-waste model that our economy has been built on since the industrial revolution is failing, and we need a new model. And so that model will emerge, and I think investors understand that, and so you are starting to see ethical portfolios outperforming non-ethical portfolios. They tend to be a little bit more high-risk, because they tend to be smaller companies, so they tend to get buffeted about more, but they are seeing really strong performance at the moment.
I think the other thing is trust, and I think it's really interesting that the first brands emerged after the industrial revolution. So you had this shift from everybody living in a very small village, and I would buy, you know, the shoes for my horse from the blacksmith on the corner, so if something went wrong with them, I could take them back. I'd buy my clothes from, you know, a tailor who lived just up the road, whatever it was.
When the industrial revolution happened, we no longer knew the people who made our stuff, and so that's where brands arrived, because brands guaranteed quality, they guaranteed accountability, they guaranteed safety, and I think we're having a similar shift happening now. So we're kind of living in what's called a post-truth era. I came up, I found the term whilst prepping for today's conversation, infobesity.
Malin Cunningham
Oh wow, I love that.
Katie Treggiden
Right, just the amount of AI slop that is on the internet. So I think we've got this kind of overwhelm of information, so again the role of brand is trustworthy, and kind of as a background to that, we're living in what's been termed a VUCA world. So VUCA stands for volatile, uncertain, complex and ambiguous, and so we've got all this uncertainty happening, and then all this information that we can't trust, and a brand that is trustworthy can really cut through a lot of that noise, and I think that's why, despite some recent controversy, certifications like B Corp have helped, because it gives consumers a shortcut that if this is B Corp, I know they've done certain checks, and those checks are changing because of various things that have happened, but again we will stick the sources for all of these stats in the show notes, but 68% of shoppers still say they will pay more for a trusted, reliable and high quality brand.
So even in a cost of living crisis, trust is so important, and I think when you get this stuff right, obviously there's a risk of backlash, there's a risk of it going wrong, but when you get it right, which is what Malin and I are going to help you do over the course of this podcast, it can really build trust, and really help you to stand out from the crowd.
Malin Cunningham
Well it's said, and on that trust thing, I think there's loads of stats here, but again we can we can share, but there is the Edelman Trust, if you don't know what they are, they said it's an annual trust survey basically, trust and credibility survey, and last year's showed, so it's actually exactly the same stat for some bizarre reasons, 67% of people in the UK think that businesses are actively misleading them. Wow.
That's crazy isn't it? Yeah, that just shows how high the level of mistrust is right? Yeah exactly, so I focus on business, but if you want to have a look at the report, you know it talks about unsurprisingly government, and you know other people, you know other stakeholders basically, but I just think for me that really demonstrates just how big the gap is at the moment, between what businesses are putting out there, and you know how people feel about it.
Katie Treggiden
Yeah, I was having a really interesting conversation with somebody recently who specialises in elderhood, and he has the opinion that you can't retire from a climate crisis, and so the boomers have a role to do in terms of providing elder figures for kind of quote-unquote villages, for communities of people, and I was sort of arguing that you know, and he was saying you have to trust elders in order that they grow into that trust, and I was sort of arguing that you know people in positions of authority in elderhood have actively lost our trust, you know all the government parties that happened during lockdown, the scandals that have happened within the church, you know the things that have happened with the police and young women, you know you sort of think all these institutions that we used to trust by default, or I say we privileged white people used to trust by default, you know there are so many things you can point to where that trust has been horrendously eroded, and I think that's why kind of communicating this stuff well is so important, because if you can build a brand that people trust that is rare and special, and as you say it takes some bravery, but the opportunity is huge, and I think that kind of ties into the point that talking about your values, talking about sustainability helps to attract and retain talent.
71% of employees in a survey by BlackRockSearch, which again we'll share, 71% said they would take a pay cut in order to work somewhere that shares their mission and values, which is again just incredible isn't it, like the strength of feeling that there is, and the sacrifices people are willing to make in order to kind of live and work and shop in line with their values, just shows that this stuff still matters even if nobody's talking about it.
Malin Cunningham
Absolutely, and the interesting thing there about you know talent and boomers, bearing in mind the boomers are obviously exiting the workplace increasingly, so last year apparently was the first year that Gen Z overtook the boomers in the workplace, so this attitude change is really filtering through now, which is obviously part of the reason why those stats you just said are what they are, because that generation are demanding other things you know, than the older generation that are not as perhaps as aware or they have lived in a society that looks very very different from the reality we have today.
Katie Treggiden
Yeah and I think you know those people spent their lives looking forward to retirement, and I heard a report recently which was talking about the kind of mental health crisis in young people, and you're like is it a mental health crisis or have we just taken away their future you know, have we taken, I'm not suggesting there isn't a mental health crisis, of course there is, but I think there is also a context to that mental health crisis right, which is that kids who are entering the workforce now are not you know planning how to spend their retirement, they are worrying about what sort of life is even going to be possible then, and then I think the last reason we should talk about it, we've talked about lots of the kind of selfish reasons, but the last reason we should talk about this stuff is that sharing your imperfect progress towards genuine sustainability, and that's a phrase you're going to hear me use a lot, even with your competitors, enables everybody to learn from each other so we can move towards a regenerative future, and I think that's a real mindset shift because we're so used to competitive advantage and kind of hiding what makes us do well, but I think we do need to kind of take down the walls on some of this stuff, if you've figured out how to do something more sustainably, sing it from the rooftops, let people copy that, make that become common practise, and then hopefully your competitors will start doing the same, and you'll be able to learn from them as well, and we can all kind of move towards this future together, none of us are going to figure it out on our own, we're only going to figure it out by by sharing wisdom.
Malin Cunningham
Yeah absolutely, I mean because that's the crazy thing isn't it, if you've got, it's really hard to crack this stuff, and you have loads of people with the same problem, and everybody's trying to solve it individually, it's just bonkers isn't it, whereas if you work together, you can get that faster, then you can focus on the things that make, that sets you apart then, that makes you, you know, you know, develops your USP over somebody else, but you know, the foundations, if you can solve them together and get them off your to-do list, that benefits everybody surely.
Katie Treggiden
Yeah 100 percent, and it is again, there's that generational shift that I'm seeing more and more young designers making things open source, making them widely available, so those are all the reasons why to talk about sustainability, and for the rest of the podcast we will be focussing on how, so we've got some amazing guests coming up, Malin and I will be having more of these conversations, diving into topics in more depth, and specifically I think we'll dive into some more of that greenwashing hydra, because I think exploring some of those terms in depth would be really interesting, and I hope you'll stick around and listen to more episodes. We have been Katie Treggiden and Malin Cunningham, and this has been Spill the Green Tea. Please leave us a review and share this episode with anyone you think might find it helpful, and let's get people talking about this stuff.
Malin Cunningham
Thank you my co-host, author, journalist and consultant, Katie Tregidden. Katie is on a mission to share true stories of imperfect progress towards genuine sustainability, and to help purpose-driven brands talk about their eco-efforts for clarity, credibility and confidence. Katie has a brilliant resource called Green, Not Greenwashed, that will help you do just that.
You can find a link in the show notes.
Katie Treggiden
And thank you to my co-host, Malin Cunningham is the founder of B2B comms consultancy, Hattrick. They help businesses build commercial credibility and a competitive edge through standout PR, thought leadership and carbon literacy training. And Malin has a fantastic guide for sales and marketing professionals called Green or Greenwashed?
Great minds think alike, what can I say? And you can find a link to that in the show notes too.
Malin Cunningham
And a final thank you to all our brilliant guests and to Kirsty Spain for editing and producing this and every episode.
