The Net Zero conversation we've been avoiding - How to communicate when you're not on track
This is an auto-generated transcript that has not been edited or proofread and therefore may contain errors.
Malin Cunningham
Welcome to Spill the Green Tea, the podcast where we dive into perhaps the most controversial part of sustainability, how to talk about it.
Katie Treggiden
That's right, we're exploring how to talk about your eco-efforts without getting called out. Join us for straight-talking, behind-the-scenes insights and practical takeaways that will help you gather the courage to shine your light in these volatile, uncertain, complex and ambiguous times.
Malin Cunningham
It's a serious topic and we don't shy away from that, but we will bring you uplifting, positive and pragmatic conversations with brilliant guests and in-depth discussions between the two of us, all to give you the confidence to talk about your imperfect efforts towards genuine sustainability.
Katie Treggiden
Because it's not just showing off, sharing your progress helps you connect with clients and customers and inspire others to be more open about where they are on their journey. We need your stories now more than ever.
Welcome to this episode of Spill the Green Tea.
In the very first episode, Malin and I talked about how one of the reasons for the great green hush was a genuine reset, where companies have set ambitious net zero targets and milestones to be hit by 2030, which is now less than four years away. And we're just sort of having a look at how possible that was now looking. And Malin saw a really interesting article by Solitaire Townsend called How to Dodge the Imminent Net Zero Mass Failure.
And the subtitle of that was Societal Systems are Holding Corporate Climate Action Back. And what Solitaire investigates is the fact that actually many companies are on track to miss their 2030 net zero milestones because the societal systems they operate in haven't transformed quickly enough. So in this episode, Malin and I dig into that and try to unpick some of the comms challenges that this is going to result in for brands and hopefully offer some advice for comms teams and sustainability teams navigating those challenges.
So enjoy the episode and I will see you on the other end. So we talked in our first episode about the reasons for the great green hush. And one of those was this sense that brands were having a genuine reset, a genuine rethink, having made some pretty bold targets and ambitions to hit net zero by 2050, which of course is necessary.
Brands didn't pluck that out of the air. That's what the Paris Climate Change Agreement has said we all need to do to avoid catastrophic climate change. And Malin, you came across a really interesting article that sort of dug into that in a bit more detail, didn't you?
Malin Cunningham
Yes, exactly. So strolling LinkedIn on my way into work, as you do, I came across Solitaire Townsend, wonderful chief solutionist at Futera. She'd written a post and also this article around sort of why brands or why businesses are struggling to hit the targets essentially.
And the fact that in reality, lots of businesses are not going to hit the targets that they have set for a number of different reasons. You know, one reason being that actually the targets were an overstretch at the time. And that could have been because they didn't actually understand what it meant.
You know, if the targets were set a good few years ago, we didn't have a clear picture or needed to happen, etc. Yeah.
Katie Treggiden
And it's a great headline, isn't it? It's an easy press release to write. We've committed to net zero by 2050.
Actually putting the plan behind that to make it happen is a bigger job. Yeah, exactly.
Malin Cunningham
And I think particularly, I think loads of brands got carried away around the Glasgow COP in particular, you know, because it was like such a big celebration of all these things. And everybody wanted to, you know, make a pledge of some kind. Which is good.
Like that's a good thing. Yeah, of course it is.
Katie Treggiden
It's amazing. We just then have to make it happen.
Malin Cunningham
Yeah, exactly. And so starting to unpick that and getting worried about it. And or then obviously, not we haven't solved everything.
So for instance, you know, the grid still isn't green. Yeah. To give a really sort of simple example, which means that actually businesses can only do so much.
They can't sort of get all the way there because they can't buy, you know, renewable energy, for instance, if they can't, you know, buy their own solar panels or whatever it might be.
Katie Treggiden
Yeah. So they're kind of operating in complex systems that haven't moved on as fast as we were all hoping they would. And so to a certain extent, their hands are tied, right?
Malin Cunningham
Yeah, exactly. And, you know, there is a bit of fatigue around that, isn't it? You feel like, there's all this energy to tackle these things.
And then all of a sudden it becomes really hard.
Katie Treggiden
Yeah.
Malin Cunningham
You feel like, oh, I'll be working at this for a long time now. And I don't feel like I'm getting quite as far as I'd like to. So that's challenging.
And basically what Solitaire says in her post and article, which we will share with you all in the notes, is that actually, we need to talk about this. We need to be open about the fact that businesses are struggling to meet the targets and we need to collectively talk about it. But we also need some, what we call brave brands in that first session, I think, to step up and say, actually, we are really struggling too.
And what are we going to do about this, both collectively, but also as individual businesses?
Katie Treggiden
Yeah. And since you shared the article with me, I've done a bit of digging and I found an analysis by Accenture, which is actually from November 2024. So it's a little more than a year out of date.
But they looked at the 2000 largest companies in the world that report emissions data. So there's a slight self-selection of this audience, right? These are companies that are choosing to report emissions data.
And at the end of 2024, only 16% of them were on track to reach net zero by 2050. And that's slightly down from the 18% that were on track in 2023. So 53% of them have reduced their scope one and two emissions, but it's just not happening fast enough.
So there is going to be this mass missing of those targets. And I think because so many of those targets for 2050 had milestones for 2030, which is now less than four years away, this mass missing of targets is coming, right? It's on the way.
We can't, there's only so long we can pretend as a, you know, as a collective, as an industry, as people who care about this stuff, that this isn't happening.
Malin Cunningham
Well, exactly. And it's interesting, isn't it? Because obviously that's a huge issue on a business level.
And obviously if you're, you know, head of sustainability, that's a big head scratch. But obviously for us in comms, it's a huge issue as well, because we're going to have to find a way of communicating this without green hushing, but also without greenwashing, which is obviously the two topics that we talk a lot about. So, you know, how do you communicate that?
Well, when actually, you know, the original targets that you set sounded quite straightforward and simple. Yeah. All of a sudden, now you have to communicate something that is really complex.
Katie Treggiden
Yeah. And, you know, it was, it was comms gold, wasn't it? We've decided as an organisation, we're going to hit net zero by 2050.
We're doing it. Everybody's on board. That's a relatively easy comms job.
Whereas we are now, you know, people talk about a VUCA atmosphere, so volatile, uncertain, complex and ambiguous. And that describes the world we're living in. But I think it also increasingly describes the comms challenge ahead of us, right?
We're trying to explain something. And it goes against everything we're taught in comms, which is keep it simple, stupid, right? That's the analogy that we were all taught, you know, and particularly in environments like social media, where we're used to these short, snappy soundbites, and trying to explain to stakeholders, whether that's clients, whether that's your supply chain, whether that's investors, that actually, we're probably not going to hit these targets for reasons that are phenomenally complex, that are both systemic and organisational. But, you know, here's what we're doing about it.
Here's what we might hit and how because, you know, you've now got that credibility gap that if you set new targets, you've really got to back them up with the how it's a much, it's a much harder challenge. And I think you can see why people are either green hushing and just going quiet, toning down those commitments and sort of saying, Oh, we're just going to reduce emissions. And we're not going to tell you by how much or by when you know, and the result is these kind of really beige, wishy washy comms or no comms at all.
Why is that dangerous? Because like, I can see why that's tempting as a strategy. But what what do you think the problem is with with that response to this situation?
Malin Cunningham
Yeah, I mean, the challenge is then, you know, as we talk a lot about, you're not building any credibility with your audience. You know, people are not trusting you because they can tell that you're not telling the full story. So that's the first issue, isn't it?
You know, there's, you're creating a vacuum. You know, we're sophisticated enough to be able to read between the lines there and see that actually you're just sharing half a story of that, you know, even less maybe. And the other part of that, of course, as well is that if nobody's talking about it, the sort of the collective pressure of delivering on these targets sort of slips away as well quietly.
And we're not, you know, we're not inspiring other people, even if it's even if we're struggling, talking about the fact that we're struggling is inspiring. And we know that's been, I mean, I think ever since COVID, you know, if you go on LinkedIn, there are all these people sharing their stories, aren't they? I'm not talking about sustainability unnecessarily.
And when we see that, certainly when it's genuine, we buy into it, don't we? And we believe those people more and we think, oh, wow, they're really brave. And, you know, I can relate to them.
And that's a much more productive environment.
Katie Treggiden
So it's a it's a really interesting moment. I think it's almost a coming of age of sustainability comms, where actually admitting you're going to miss this target might be the most credible thing you can do right now.
Malin Cunningham
Yeah, absolutely. And I think and this is, you know, going back to Solitaire's both post and article, you know, this is what she's saying as well, that, yes, we need brave businesses to do this. But we also probably need to do it collectively.
You know, we need to acknowledge that this is happening on a large scale, because otherwise, you know, the first business is going to go out there and it's going to be that tumbleweed.
Katie Treggiden
Yeah, or worse.
Malin Cunningham
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And, you know, when when when we when we delivered either Green Washington or anti-Greenwashing training or the Carbon Literacy Project could talk a lot about, you know, the emperor's new clothes and the fact that, you know, people are pretending that things are a certain way and nobody's kind of challenging it just because. And it's, I guess, calling that out.
But without singling people out, it's more about, I guess, create a space where it's all right to say it for all the reasons we've just talked about.
Katie Treggiden
Yeah. And I think it's walking that fine line, isn't it, between oh, we didn't hit the target, but it's not our fault because of all these systemic things, which just sounds like a cop out, even though it may well be true. And that sort of sense of communicating that complexity of these are the things we're dependent on.
These are the things we have done. These are the things we're struggling. You know, these are the ways in which we're trying to change the systems.
Yeah. And it is really nuanced, I think, because, you know, you mentioned the sort of people sharing their struggle on LinkedIn. There are also people who share their struggle, who just make you roll your eyes, you know, completely.
It's a real balance, isn't it, between that sort of it's not poor old me and that sort of victim mentality versus there's a really interesting book called The Empowerment Dynamic, which is written entirely in Comic Sans. Oh, wow. It talks about, I'm not going to remember the names now.
There's two triangles. It's the Empowerment Dynamic is the triangle we're trying to move to. And it talks about being in a triangle with you've got a victim, a rescuer and a persecutor, kind of in a triangle together.
And the idea is to try and move to... It's a drama triangle, isn't it? Yes.
Yeah. So you're trying to move to kind of an empowered person. I can't remember what they call that one.
And the coach and the challenger. And I think it's an interesting, I haven't planned to bring that up because of the fact I don't have the details to hand, but we'll pop it in the show notes. But I think that is moving from communicating as the victim to communicating as that empowered person who, yes, has challenges.
But these are the ways in which you're trying to overcome them and taking ownership for what you have done and what you probably should have done but haven't. And also the bits that are beyond your control, but might be within your sphere of influence. So it might be setting up a coalition of businesses that are going to lobby government to change energy.
And so it is a difficult challenge. And I think it is a real coming of age for sustainability comms to see how we respond to this moment.
Malin Cunningham
Yeah, definitely. And when we were having a brief chat beforehand, you also mentioned because you got, you're obviously a coach as well. And with your coach head, you were talking about the fact that this is really challenging for us as communicators, obviously, and actually looking after ourselves.
Katie Treggiden
I think the people working in sustainability comms are holding this gap at the moment between what we all know is probably true and what the narrative still is. And that for sure, there are spaces within the environmental movement that are completely embracing despair. I saw a retreat that you could only go on if you'd completely given up hope that we would ever sort out the climate crisis.
And they were talking about having to walk through despair in order to get to meaningful action, which I thought was really interesting, because I'm a real proponent of defiant hope. So there are definitely corners that are very much in this, we're not going to hit these targets, guys, space. But I think for a lot of sustainability comms people, we're holding both truths, we're probably not going to hit these targets, but that's not really public knowledge yet.
That's really hard work, just bridging that emotional gap. And then, you know, developing these VUCA communications, these kind of volatile, uncertain, complex and ambiguous kind of worlds that we're having to navigate and how you bring stakeholders on on that journey is also a really difficult job. And then you and I are sitting here and asking brands to be brave enough to go out and and say, we're not going to hit our target, there's going to be some backlash, which is going to affect individual humans.
And I think that's the thing we tend to forget is, there is somebody on the other end of that Twitter account, that Instagram account, that LinkedIn account, when people are piling on. And I think we have to think about how we take care of those people in this time, because it's gonna be hard. I think there are huge rewards to being the brands that are brave enough to come out and say this.
But it's gonna be hard. And increasingly, you know, Malin, you and I, I think are both Gen X, we are both from the generation of people who set big, hairy, audacious goals. But increasingly, the people managing this have inherited a set of goals that our generation set.
And they're increasingly Gen Z, you have quite a different, a different mindset on this stuff, right?
Malin Cunningham
Yeah, definitely. It's really interesting. I was listening to the panel for with the anti greenwash charter, and they were talking about all of these topics.
Katie Treggiden
I think there are huge rewards to being the brands that are brave enough to come out and say this, but it's going to be hard, and increasingly, you know, Malin, you and I, I think, are both Gen X, we are both from the generation of people who set big, hairy, audacious goals, but increasingly the people managing this have inherited a set of goals that our generation set, and they're increasingly Gen Z. You have quite a different mindset on this stuff, right?
Malin Cunningham
Yeah, definitely. It's really interesting. I was listening to a panel with the anti-greenwash charter, and they were talking about all of these topics, and that was one of the things that came up, actually, that this divide between, you know, the generation that you and I are part of, and maybe, you know, even the boomers, I don't know.
You know, we have set the scene, so to speak, and then now all of a sudden you've got the Gen Z entering the workplace en masse, outnumbering the boomers, and they have to pick this up and run with it, and, you know, particularly, I think, again, kind of maybe going back to the pandemic, but maybe even before that, they just have a completely different mentality, haven't they, in terms of, it's about looking after yourself, and I don't mean that in a selfish way, I mean that in a positive way, you know, not working themselves into an early grave, perhaps, but, you know, having some more boundaries, and there's definitely going to be friction between those two, and they're probably thinking, why the hell have we gone out in this way, when, you know, it could be managed in a better way, so.
Katie Treggiden
Yeah, and I think, interestingly, they probably have a different approach to goal setting, you know, and probably a more sensible approach to goal setting, right, which is a bit more like, right, what can we actually achieve, what's realistic, and it is difficult, because what we need to achieve to avoid catastrophic climate change, catastrophic and irreversible climate change, is not realistic at this point, you know, and there's a gap between, you know, it's all very well saying, well, that's not realistic, that's what we need to do, we can't change the science of, you know, the physics of what's happening in the planet, so there is an element of us having to pull off the impossible at this point, and that is something that that generation have inherited from previous generations.
But I think there's also a sort of, I saw Tim Smith, the founder of the Eden Project interviewed, and he talked about, and he talks about in his book as well, the idea of future truths. So he tells a story where he was on a date with a girl who played tennis, and she said, do you play tennis? And he's, oh, yeah, I'm great at tennis.
And she said, cool, well, let's meet up and play tennis. He was terrible at tennis and had to have lessons in order to be great at tennis. So he could go on this date with her.
But he said it wasn't a lie. It was a future truth. And he did a similar thing with the Eden Project, where they didn't have planning permission from Cornwall Council, in time for the big launch event, where he had loads of journalists, and he was going to announce the whole thing.
So he just announced in that space that they had planning permission. And apparently, the guys from the Cornwall Council Planning Department who were there all sort of looked at each other and went, oh, did we sign it off? Oh, brilliant.
Oh, apparently it's been signed off. And I think that's even perhaps a boomer thing rather than a Gen X thing of, it's okay to make these bold claims and figure it out later. And I'm not sure that washes with younger generations, I think they are much more concerned about authenticity, and kind of being really honest, not telling future truths or lies, really honest about what's possible.
And so yeah, I think it'd be really interesting to see how that plays out within comms departments where you've got these very different generational approaches.
Malin Cunningham
Yeah. Although having said that, I've got kids that are young Gen Zs, and they talk a lot about manifesting and that's kind of a future truth thing, isn't it? You know, like, positive thinking and we can do this.
But I think that there is definitely a slight difference there. But yeah, no, it's fascinating, isn't it? And this all at a time where, you know, we're all absolutely overrun with comms.
You know, there is so much noise, isn't it? And also recognising perhaps that obviously everybody that we're trying to communicate with don't have all the context that people who are in the space do either. You know, we talked about in that first session about layering of communications, didn't we?
So making sure that, you know, we're not sort of overwhelming at the first point, but giving people enough so that if they want to understand the big picture, they can go further and dig deeper, etc.
Katie Treggiden
I'm just trying to think, you know, in that model, what the headline subhead and first paragraph would be. And I think there is something really powerful. So the most opened email subject line is some version of oops, we made a mistake.
People are fascinated by that. It's like, yes, what happened to the extent that people are now overusing it slightly? Yeah, well, come on.
But I, I think there's something really interesting in that. And the headline, you know, we're not going to hit net zero by 2050. And here's why I actually think is hugely compelling.
It will cut through in the noise of all the other stuff. And then it's just getting the here's why, right? Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I kind of feel like this episode is, guys, this is going to be really hard. But I, but I think, you know, and I was sort of going to ask you to, to advise on on how folks should navigate this.
But I think they navigate this the same way they navigate other sustainability comms. And it's the stuff we're talking about through all of these episodes, right?
Malin Cunningham
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think just touching upon what you said, then in terms of the whoops, we got it wrong type thing. When, again, when we do this, you know, some of the training, we talk about the case, a case study, which is Ace and Tate, who started on their B Corp journey, and then went out and talked about how they effed up basically, that is the actual words they used, right, as part of the campaign.
And, you know, without fail, when, you know, when we present that people like it, and they, you know, it feels extremely brave, I guess, language is part of it. I'm human, right? Yeah, exactly.
But also, you know, you're instantly establishing some trust there, aren't you? If you can be that open, and they go into a huge amount of detail about what went wrong, but then also how what what is now happening, and then following up on that, and I just think that there is real power in that, isn't there?
Katie Treggiden
Yeah, I've had a similar experience. So I used to be 1% for the planet registered. And for anyone who's not familiar with 1% for the planet, the idea is that you donate 1% of your turnover, so your income rather than your profit to environmental causes.
And it's kind of like a planet tax. And I was like, yeah, I'm completely up for this. Love this idea, work with surfers against sewage or a local charity.
Well, they're a national charity now, but they were founded in Cornwall to tackle water pollution. And I had a really tough couple of years financially in my business, and I was making a loss. But because it's based on turnover, not profit, you're still donating 1%.
And at the time, I had quite a high turnover, but even higher outgoings. And so it was tipping me further into making a loss. And so I had to make the really difficult decision to stop being part of 1% for the planet.
And I wrote an email because I talked quite publicly about the fact I was 1% for the planet. Of course I had, I was really proud of it, right?
Malin Cunningham
Yeah.
Katie Treggiden
So I wrote an email and did a social media post explaining why I was no longer 1% for the planet. And you know, I was waiting for the backlash. I was waiting to get yelled at by people.
And actually, I got so much lovely feedback, either from people because the kicker with 1% for the planet for very small businesses is that a fixed amount of your 1% goes to 1% of the planet themselves, so that they can run the organisation. And if you're a very small organisation, sometimes that's your whole 1%. And so people were sort of thinking, well, I actually want my 1% to go to the charity, so I'm going to donate direct.
So a lot of smaller businesses shared that, a lot of slightly bigger businesses who'd been in the same situation as I had and run the maths and thought, actually, this is going to this is going to make me make a loss. And of course, tax is based on profit, right? It's not based on revenue.
So your tax is proportional to your profit. So yeah, I've experienced this firsthand that that kind of email you're terrified to send to say, I know I said I'd do this thing. And I did do it for a while, but I can't do it anymore.
And actually got really lovely feedback. And I think it did build trust because it was, you know, admitting a human flaw and a stumbling block that other people were facing as well.
Malin Cunningham
Yeah, absolutely. Because it would be so easy to just kind of, you know, swipe back to the side, not talk about it.
Katie Treggiden
Quietly take the logos off my website.
Malin Cunningham
Keep moving on as if nothing has happened. Because that happens quite often, doesn't it? And it's brave, you know, as you described it there, you know, you talked about how it does feel uncomfortable and you're kind of waiting for some kind of backlash.
But actually, me hearing you talking about it, to me, that sounds like that's definitely the right thing to do. But it does feel slightly different when you're the person having to do it. So.
Katie Treggiden
Especially when I've encouraged so many other people to sign up. And I think that's the thing, isn't it? Is the brands who are leaders in this space.
And I think if anybody is going to be, you know, Solitaire talks about this needing to be a communal effort, that lots of businesses come out and talk about this. Somebody is going to have to be the first mover. Somebody is going to have to be the first person to say, as a company, we're not going to hit.
And I think it needs to be a brand with tonnes of credibility. It needs to be a Patagonia. It needs to be a Tony's Chocolonely.
You know, somebody who we know for 100% certain would not be doing this if they had another way around it. And then I think that will give other brands the kind of confidence to follow. And then hopefully we can have a genuine conversation about the systemic change that is needed in order that companies can make the changes they need to make.
Because, you know, this has to be a collective action.
Malin Cunningham
Yeah, definitely. I mean, interestingly, just thinking about both of those two brands that you mentioned them. So I know that Tony already does it to some extent in terms of obviously, if you don't know about Tony's Chocolonely, they're all about, you know, getting rid of slavery in the supply chain.
That's what, you know, that's the key. That's a key headline challenge that they're tackling. And they talk about the fact that they have found slavery in the supply chain.
And quite openly, you know, they report on this all the time. And they talk about that, actually, that is a cause. But, you know, even with that, and everything that we're doing, you know, that is still there and present at times.
Yeah, yeah. And similarly, I'm pretty confident I haven't seen this myself. So maybe I'm speaking out of turn, but I'm pretty sure Patagonia does as well.
They talk about the fact that they are never going to be a completely green company because of what they do. But they're doing what they can to do what they can.
Katie Treggiden
So I think it's interesting that when Fairphone launched, they launched with the idea they'd have a fully transparent supply chain. They started with four of the elements in the phone that they were trying to make fully transparent. So, you know, and I think it's, you know, we talk a lot about communicating your journey and communicating perfect progress.
And when you have a history of doing that, nobody's going to be surprised when you talk about this stuff. I think it's when you've been projecting perfection. Yeah.
And suddenly, you have to kind of take a step back. That's where it's gonna just jolt people a little bit, you know, but I think that's the next thing that has to happen, unfortunately, because we need a sort of collective reassessment on how we're going to hit net zero. And so much of it needs to be systemic.
There's only so much we can do as individual humans, as individual organisations. And I think owning and being super clear about the bits that are within are there's a brilliant, it's a bit of a funny book. It's called The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen Covey.
I was gifted it in my very first job. It's kind of less cringey when than it sounds, it's actually about kind of living according to your values. And there's a diagram in there that I refer to, I refer back to quite a lot, where he talks about your circle of direct control.
So the things that are completely within your control, and then your circle of influence, and then the circle of things that are your circle of concern. So the things you care about, but you've got no influence on whatsoever. And he says that the more time you spend in your circle of direct control, the more you actually grow your circle of influence.
Whereas the more time you spend in your circle of concern, so the things you can't influence, you actually shrink your circle of influence. So I think there's a lesson there for some of the things we were talking about in the episode about our 3C model, about kind of proportionality and understanding which bits are within your gift to control and which things you can influence. And I think some of these systemic changes are perhaps in that in that circle of influence, where they're not within organisations control, but they perhaps are within organisations influence, particularly if organisations come together and lobby government for change.
Malin Cunningham
And I just want to pick up on one thing that just sort of flew into my head as you were talking before. You know, we have this culture of people apologising and organisations coming out and you know, something's gone wrong. And it just doesn't sound, you know, as long as you say, as long as you apologise, all's forgiven.
You know, we've almost created this culture, haven't we?
Katie Treggiden
And I just wanted to make sure that- And those apologies are always so insincere as well, aren't they?
Malin Cunningham
Exactly!
Katie Treggiden
We apologise if you felt, rather than we've caused actual harm and here's what we're going to do to make amends.
Malin Cunningham
So I just wanted to make clear, this is not what we're talking about here. You know, it's none of that. Like just because you've put your, you know, sort of, you know, cards on the table in some kind of way, but without anything behind it, that doesn't count.
That's going to erode, you know, your reputation. It's not going to strengthen it. It needs to be transparent.
It needs to be open.
Katie Treggiden
Yeah. So it's not just, we haven't hit our target, we're sorry.
Malin Cunningham
No, exactly. You know, it has to be substantiated in more ways than one. And like you say, you know, part of that is about understanding which bits that we have not done because, well, you know, we can't because of the system that we're in and which bits that we haven't done because we haven't done them.
Katie Treggiden
And also which bits you have done, right? Celebrate and own the bits that you have done. And I think it's that, it's that complexity of messaging, isn't it?
You know, this is what, this was our target. This was our plan. This is how we've done against that plan.
These are some of the reasons. And I think it's so important. Some of the reasons we take ownership for are bad.
We're going to fix that. And then, you know, some of these things are systemic and here's how we're trying to influence that system.
Malin Cunningham
Yeah.
Katie Treggiden
Yeah. It's that layering and that complexity of messaging that I think is so important. And also, you know, we sort of talked about in the episode on our three Cs, we talked about tone of voice as well and getting that balance between kind of defensiveness and humbleness, right?
And so, yeah, I don't think it necessarily needs to be apologetic. I think it just needs to be an honest, transparent sharing of facts and also the what now.
Malin Cunningham
I mean, exactly that, because that's where the when it becomes defensive or apologetic, it's not believable unless lots of other things have gone on at the same time.
Katie Treggiden
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There are occasions where a genuine apology is required.
Malin Cunningham
However, you know, as a general rule, it's more about owning it and not feeling defensive about it by thinking, OK, this is where we are. I think I've mentioned this before, but Dave at the Carbon Literacy Project, he always talks about start where you are, do what you can. And it's kind of that attitude, isn't it?
This is where we're at, you know, wherever that is, we're going to start from here and we're going to do what we can and, you know, report on that, etc. That's really, I just really like it. It's really straightforward.
Katie Treggiden
Yeah, 100 percent. And that idea that where you are and what you can is not where you are and what you could when you made these targets. So it's start where you've ended up now.
And yeah, brilliant. All right. Well, I hope that gives folks some hope, some ways forward and some actions, despite what is a bit of a clangour of an episode.
There's going to be a mass missing of targets and it's going to be really hard to communicate. But I just love that phrase brave brands, Malin, that you came out with in the very first episode. And I think that's what we're looking for here is some bravery and some honesty.
Malin Cunningham
Great. I will obviously mention loads of stuff there, so we'll just share them in the notes as usual. You can dive in yourself and have a look.
Katie Treggiden
Yeah, absolutely. And send us messages and comments if you've got more thoughts or things that you'd like us to cover in future episodes.
Katie Treggiden
We have been Katie Treggiden and Malin Cunningham, and this has been Spill the Green Tea. Please leave us a review and share this episode with anyone you think might find it helpful. And let's get people talking about this stuff.
Malin Cunningham
Thank you my co-host, author, journalist and consultant, Katie Tregidden. Katie is on a mission to share true stories of imperfect progress towards genuine sustainability, and to help purpose-driven brands talk about their eco-efforts for clarity, credibility and confidence. Katie has a brilliant resource called Green, Not Greenwashed, that will help you do just that.
You can find a link in the show notes.
Katie Treggiden
And thank you to my co-host, Malin Cunningham is the founder of B2B comms consultancy, Hattrick. They help businesses build commercial credibility and a competitive edge through standout PR, thought leadership and carbon literacy training. And Malin has a fantastic guide for sales and marketing professionals called Green or Greenwashed?
Great minds think alike, what can I say? And you can find a link to that in the show notes too.
Malin Cunningham
And a final thank you to all our brilliant guests and to Kirsty Spain for editing and producing this and every episode.
